Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

If Hebrews 10:25 is a command to continue to attend an official church every Sunday until the Lord's return, then what does "so much the more as ye see the day approaching" mean?

The phrase, "so much the more" suggests to me that the assembling and exhorting should increase as we see the day approaching. My question for the church goers who cite this verse as their strongest proof for continuing the external church is:

How are the believers who see the day approaching to assemble "more" in their congregations if Sunday has always been the one day to congregate since Pentecost?

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1378

May I suggest this short thread?

http://www.departout.com/viewtopic.php?p=916&sort=lastpost&search_id=1334097420#916

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

Didymus, I think everyone is free to search and benefit from any thread on this forum, but my simple question has nothing to do with Turretinfan. (Is Turretinfan even a member of this forum?) Also, I have to confess that your loquaciousness (and Turretinfan's) may be a sign of your intelligence to many, but for me it's a reading speed bump. I feel like I need a really big shovel to get to the point on a lot of the posts here. Please don't take offense. My brain is just wired differently and brevity is the soul of wit for this country bumpkin.

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1378

Fixedheart wrote

... I feel like I need a really big shovel to get to the point on a lot of the posts here. Please don't take offense. My brain is just wired differently and brevity is the soul of wit for this country bumpkin.

No offense taken. We all need a tough skin in this racket... But seriously, the last few paragraphs of the first post of that thread offer an answer to your question. The passage, like many, doesn't really lend itself to a shake and bake solution.

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

Didymus, Per your suggestion, I went to the last few paragraphs of the first post of your thread on Heb. 10 (which you linked on the "What is Church?" topic where you first mentioned it) and did not find an answer to my question.

I have asked this question here:

"If Heb. 10:25 is the church goers battle cry to keep their organization thriving to the end, then what does "so much the more"? mean in regard to congregating every Sunday?"

I can't say for sure, but I think I agree with you on the other problems with Heb. 10:25 on your other thread which addressed Turretinfan's church malarkey. My question concerns a completely different problem with Heb. 10:25 which I have never heard discussed by anyone.

FYI, I initially scanned the topics list but did not notice your reference to Hebrews 10:25 because all I noticed was "Turretinfan", a name which makes me keep going, if not run in the opposite direction. Not only did you reference HC and Turretinfan, you also referenced D.A. Carson. Isn't Harold Caming enough for these discussions? Even Bibleread said he had a more concise point to make. If you are not already a lawyer, I want you to promise me that you will start law school immediately after May 21, 2011 (if the Lord tarries).

I don't expect the church members to answer my question, simply because they won't be able to. I believe Jim B. was the only church member who replied to your post. Of course these threads will be ignored. But my other question is here, whenever they click on "EOTCA". Let's give them a chance to think about it for a while. Sunday-go-to-meetin' is a very hard habit to break. I know firsthand.

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 811

Fixedheart wrote

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

If Hebrews 10:25 is a command to continue to attend an official church every Sunday until the Lord's return, then what does "so much the more as ye see the day approaching" mean?

The phrase, "so much the more" suggests to me that the assembling and exhorting should increase as we see the day approaching. My question for the church goers who cite this verse as their strongest proof for continuing the external church is:

How are the believers who see the day approaching to assemble "more" in their congregations if Sunday has always been the one day to congregate since Pentecost?

I don't think this is talking about assembling more often. The author is simply saying that if we see that the Day is drawing closer, that is all the more reason not to neglect the assembling of the saints. The "more" is related to the need for assembling, not how often it takes place.

In any case, even if it were speaking about assembling more often, why is that a problem? Assembling is not just about Sunday morning worship services as we know them today. It includes times of corporate prayer and Bible studies during the week. Many churches have such opportunities so I don't know what the problem would be in saying we should assemble more frequently that once a week, although again I don't think that's the main point of Heb 10:25.

As far as this whole idea that the "assembling" being commanded is some type of "spiritual" assembling rather than a physical assembling, that is simply an impossible interpretation. The assembling we are called to must be physical because it's defined as the context where we stir one another up to love and good works and where we exhort one another. These one-anothering activities require a physical assembling of the participants. These activities just doesn't fit into a spiritualized definition of "assembling". Also, the author's observation that some people were neglecting to assemble proves that we're talking about a physical assembling since it would be impossible to see who was and who was not assembling spiritually. We can only observe who and who is not assembling together physically, so the fact that the author has observed that some have neglected to assemble proves we're talking about something physical.

There are many difficult to interpret passages in the Bible. Heb 10:24-25 is not one of them. Go to any commentary written for the past 2,000 years and try to find one interpreter who has denied that these verses speak of the physical assembling of the saints. You won't find any. That's because there is nothing difficult or controversial about this passage except to people who don't like what it says because it contradicts a system of doctrine they hold dear (in this case, Depart Out).

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

Frank, the first comment of yours I need to address is:

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Frank: There are many difficult to interpret passages in the Bible. Heb 10:24-25 is not one of them. Go to any commentary written for the past 2,000 years and try to find one interpreter who has denied that these verses speak of the physical assembling of the saints. You won't find any.

The reason I won't find any such commentary is because I do not look for commentaries. Why would anyone seeking truth consult with commentaries? I might as well attend church and consult with pastors. I know from comparing many passages that Hebrews 10:25 and its context is not about the physical church.

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As far as this whole idea that the "assembling" being commanded is some type of "spiritual" assembling rather than a physical assembling, that is simply an impossible interpretation. The assembling we are called to must be physical because it's defined as the context where we stir one another up to love and good works and where we exhort one another.

Here is my commentary on your commentary.

Heb 10:19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Frank, you believe that we are to assemble physically "because it's defined as the context where we stir one another up to love and good works and where we exhort one another."

Would you say that the reference to entering into the "holiest" is referring to your external congegation? That's not what we are taught in Hebrews 9 and 10 which instructs about the removal of the first covent (sacrifice, offering and burnt offerings of the law) because it was replaced with the second covenant (grace). I believe the context of Heb. 10:25 includes v. 19 and I don't see the literal church in "the holiest place". If we read for literal meanings, that is what we will find. I choose to see the spiritual meaning which points to Jesus Christ as the second covenant and the "holiest place". That is what I have learned from reading Hebrews 9 and 10.

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In any case, even if it were speaking about assembling more often, why is that a problem? Assembling is not just about Sunday morning worship services as we know them today. It includes times of corporate prayer and Bible studies during the week. Many churches have such opportunities so I don't know what the problem would be in saying we should assemble more frequently that once a week, although again I don't think that's the main point of Heb 10:25.

The corporate worship service was typified by Moses and it was the only outward corporate worship that God ever commanded. There are no commands in the Scriptures concerning whatever has been set up by each individual church's ruling elders. If it's not in the Bible, it is not a command. While I was still in the church the "extras" such as Good Friday service and Christmas services started to bother me. I began to wonder where the commands were to gather as a congregation for these events.

You say your church gathers for corporate prayer. I believe that Jesus gave us all the information we need to know about prayer in these verses:

Mt. 6:5 ¶ And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

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As far as this whole idea that the "assembling" being commanded is some type of "spiritual" assembling rather than a physical assembling, that is simply an impossible interpretation. The assembling we are called to must be physical because it's defined as the context where we stir one another up to love and good works and where we exhort one another. These one-anothering activities require a physical assembling of the participants.

Not if we understand that we are not to forsake the assembling in "the holiest" and that "exhorting" relates to Christ - not others.
I think you might have heard by now that "one another" is not in the original text.

"Exhort". A very interesting word that should be thoroughly studied before making firm conclusions about Hebrews 10:25.

25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting [one another]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching

Exhort: Strong's 3870: "parakaleo". When we understand how this word is used in the Scriptures and that the words "one another" were added by the church-going translators, we should see we might need to adjust our thinking.

Mt 8:34 And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought <3870> him that he would depart out of their coasts.

Mt 26:53 Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray <3870> to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Mr 1:40 And there came a leper to him, beseeching <3870> him, and kneeling down to him, and saying unto him, If thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Mr 7:32 And they bring unto him one that was deaf, and had an impediment in his speech; and they beseech <3870> him to put his hand upon him.

Lu 8:41 And, behold, there came a man named Jairus, and he was a ruler of the synagogue: and he fell down at Jesus’ feet, and [b]besought <3870> him [/b]that he would come into his house:

Lu 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted <3870>, and thou art tormented.

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Also, the author's observation that some people were neglecting to assemble proves that we're talking about a physical assembling since it would be impossible to see who was and who was not assembling spiritually.

Where does it say that the author observed the Hebrews' negligence in assembling of themselves together in "the holiest"? As I read Hebrews 9 and 10 I see instruction, warnings, commands and a reminder for every one of us who can see the day approaching.

The subject verse and passage is about holding fast the profession of [our] faith without wavering: for he is faithful that promised (Heb. 10:24). It is not about any commands to gather in official churches for official prayers and official Bible studies.

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 811

Fixedheart wrote

Why would anyone seeking truth consult with commentaries?

The same reason you would expect anyone to listen to your commentaries. Everything posted on this forum comes down to each person's own personal commentary on certain biblical passages. I don't get it. You insinuate there's something wrong with seeking the wisdom of those who have written commentaries, yet you have your own blog and are also here as a member of this forum, both places where you dispense your own comments about Scripture. I don't care whether you give it the label "teaching" or not. You are "sharing" wisdom you believe you have gleaned from Scripture. That's no different than what the author or any commentary does. Obviously commentaries are not infallible sources of truth. But they can be helpful aides to discerning the truth. But clearly if our interpretations of any Scripture have no support from any godly men of the past, that should at the very least raise some red flags. The fact is that my interpretation of Heb 10:25 is exactly what Harold Camping and everyone who followed him would have agreed to 15 or 20 years ago. The alternate explanation you have offered is nothing but a strained interpretation that has been made in order to force Heb 10:25 to harmonize with the Depart Out teaching. If your "spiritualized" understanding of Heb 10:25 is correct, why didn't anyone notice it until the Depart Out teaching came along?

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Not if we understand that we are not to forsake the assembling in "the holiest" and that "exhorting" relates to Christ - not others

How can you say it does not relate to others? You can't interpret verse 25 without verse 24 which says

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together...

The author is constructing a postive/negative contrast. Do A, not B. Verse 24 says what we should be doing. We should be considering one another in order to stir up love and good works. That's set in contrast to what we should not be doing which is to forsake assembling together. Assembling together physically so we can stir one another to good works is contrasted against not assembling together physically in which case we can't stir one another to good works (remember there was no communications technology in the 1st century...physical assembling was necessary for any mutual edification or "sharing" to take place!).

How in the world does verse 24 fit into your interpretation of assembling as meaning "entering the holy place"? How does entering the holy place have any direct connection to stirring one another to love and good deeds? Entering the holy place in verse 19 is speaking about our salvation. The author then goes on to talk about perservering in that salvation. One of God's means for our final perseverance is the mutual exhortation and encouragement we receive within the corporate body, which can not happen if we neglect the physical assembling of the body.

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You say your church gathers for corporate prayer. I believe that Jesus gave us all the information we need to know about prayer in these verses

Well the book of Acts gives us some information too, and that includes numerous instances of corporate prayer:

And when they had entered, they went up into the upper room where they were staying: Peter, James, John, and Andrew; Philip and Thomas; Bartholomew and Matthew; James the son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot; and Judas the son of James. These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. (Acts 1:13-14)

So, when he had considered this, he came to the house of Mary, the mother of John whose surname was Mark, where many were gathered together praying (Acts 12:12)

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Where does it say that the author observed the Hebrews' negligence in assembling of themselves together in "the holiest"?

The author says "as is the manner of some". How would the author know there were some who were neglecting to assemble if he was talking about some invisible spiritual assembling in the "holiest". He couldn't know, which reinforces the truth that the assembling being discussed must be physical and external since only that can be seen. If my pastor were to make an announcement from the pulpit and tell the congregation to please stop arriving at church late as is the habit of some, then clearly my pastor has observed people arriving late. You can't comment on the fact that certain people have neglected to do something unless it's something you can see them do or not do in the first place. How can anyone see someone else enter into the "holiest place"??

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

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Fixedheart wrote

Why would anyone seeking truth consult with commentaries?

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Frank: The same reason you would expect anyone to listen to your commentaries. Everything posted on this forum comes down to each person's own personal commentary on certain biblical passages. I don't get it.

What is the problem? Can't you just accept the fact that I do not believe in consulting with commentaries? Isn't that my right?

You know what I would like to see? Some new topics from the church goers on what they are learning from their pastors and Sunday school teachers. It's very possible I might find out that "church" and pastors and commentaries is a much better way to learn than from my Bible directly.

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I don't care whether you give it the label "teaching" or not. You are "sharing" wisdom you believe you have gleaned from Scripture. That's no different than what the author or any commentary does. Obviously commentaries are not infallible sources of truth. But they can be helpful aides to discerning the truth.

You asked me (incredulously) if I had never read the commentaries as if that should be my source for truth. You may not have noticed, but I only cite the Scriptures to back up my conclusions. When I see posts here in which commentators are cited, I don't bother to read them. I also don't consult with blogs. I realize that there is a general consensus on board that everyone here is a teacher and I have explained that I do not agree with that idea. If the group owner informs me that this is a "teaching" forum, I will bow out immediately because that would mean it is a seminary, school or church. What I do see is that this is a "discussion" board, from the group description:

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Depart Out
A discussion of the teachings of Harold Camping and the end of the world

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Frank: The fact is that my interpretation of Heb 10:25 is exactly what Harold Camping and everyone who followed him would have agreed to 15 or 20 years ago.

I don't care.

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The alternate explanation you have offered is nothing but a strained interpretation that has been made in order to force Heb 10:25 to harmonize with the Depart Out teaching. If your "spiritualized" understanding of Heb 10:25 is correct, why didn't anyone notice it until the Depart Out teaching came along?

This is your argument? That my understanding must be false because nobody else noticed it until the Depart Out teaching came along? Wow. You really are a man-follower! There's a lot of other problems no one has noticed, but the Spirit still made me aware of them. Go figure, huh? As for your conclusion that I have strained the interpretation to force it to mean Depart Out, you have every right to think so.

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How can you say it does not relate to others? You can't interpret verse 25 without verse 24 which says

And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together...

I don't believe that "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" is connected in the way you do. Here is how I see the instructions given in verses 22 through 25:

1) Let us draw near;
2) Let us hold fast;
3) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
4) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

As for "as is the manner of some", I believe that this is referring to the unsaved who do not draw near, hold fast, consider one another nor assemble themselves - in the holiest (Christ).

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

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Fixedheart wrote

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

If Hebrews 10:25 is a command to continue to attend an official church every Sunday until the Lord's return, then what does "so much the more as ye see the day approaching" mean?

The phrase, "so much the more" suggests to me that the assembling and exhorting should increase as we see the day approaching. My question for the church goers who cite this verse as their strongest proof for continuing the external church is:

How are the believers who see the day approaching to assemble "more" in their congregations if Sunday has always been the one day to congregate since Pentecost?

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Frank wrote: I don't think this is talking about assembling more often. The author is simply saying that if we see that the Day is drawing closer, that is all the more reason not to neglect the assembling of the saints. The "more" is related to the need for assembling, not how often it takes place.

In any case, even if it were speaking about assembling more often, why is that a problem?

Here's why I believe it is a problem. The timing, order and manner of worship was very precisely dictated by God. There was not to be any deviation at all.

Ex 12:50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

De 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

De 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Formal worship services that are not sanctioned by God's word is a serious transgression. It is adding to the Bible what is not there. It is offering "strange fire" before the Lord.

Nu 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.
Nu 26:61 And Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the LORD.

Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

"So much the more" cannot be applied to formal corporate worship.

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 811

Fixedheart wrote

What is the problem? Can't you just accept the fact that I do not believe in consulting with commentaries? Isn't that my right?

You can do whatever you want with commentaries. My comments were in response to your question "why would anyone seeking the truth consult with commentaries" as if it were somehow improper for me to do so. You still have not explained to me what the difference is between me listening to some theologian's interpretation of Scripture and me listening to your interpretations. Am I a "man-follower" because I read your blog and your posts here?

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It's very possible I might find out that "church" and pastors and commentaries is a much better way to learn than from my Bible directly.

Sorry Fixedheart, you may have freed yourself from Harold Camping but you still retain much of his mindset in your DNA. "Don't read other books and commentaries, just stick to the Bible" we are told by Harold Camping, with the implicit understanding that his books are the exception to that admonition. In the same way, you insist that we all learn from the "Bible directly" and insinuate that looking to the wisdom of other men constitutes "man-following". Yet you still publicize your own interpretations of Scripture which I assume you also believe are exceptions to the "look at the Bible only" rule. Or is that you publicize your own interpretations with no expectation that anyone would or should actually read them?

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You asked me (incredulously) if I had never read the commentaries as if that should be my source for truth.

When did I say commentaries were a "source of truth"? Reading a commentary is no different than what takes place on this forum...listening to the interpretations of others so we might look at a passage of Scripture in a new way and perhaps learn from someone else. We all have to be humble enough to admit that we might be wrong and someone else might be right. But we can't judge that until we have heard someone's else's interpretation.

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This is your argument? That my understanding must be false because nobody else noticed it until the Depart Out teaching came along? Wow. You really are a man-follower! There's a lot of other problems no one has noticed, but the Spirit still made me aware of them. Go figure, huh? As for your conclusion that I have strained the interpretation to force it to mean Depart Out, you have every right to think so.

Where did I say it must be false because nobody else had this interpretation until Depart Out came along? I said it should raise red flags. Any novel interpretations of Scripture should raise red flags for the simple reason that it's hard to believe that the real truth of any Scripture has escaped all biblical interpreters for 2,000 years, especially if the "new" conclusions fit neatly into some other new doctrine that one is trying to defend. It's just like what we have seen happen with things like women pastors and homosexuality. For 2,000 years there was a pretty broad conscensus among biblical interpreters that the Bible was clearly against both of these things. Yet on the heels of the "women's rights" movement and then the "gay rights" movement, all of a sudden we had some "theologians" discovering "new" interpretations of the classic passages that have been used to prohibit these activities. What a coincidence huh? The world decides women pastors and homosexuality are ok, and conveniently some theologian's eyes are suddenly "opened" to see that all the biblical passages condeming these things have been incorrectly interpreted for 2,000 years! Doesn't that seem a tad suspicious? Well the same thing is true about Heb 10:25. There was never any controversy about what this verse was talking about....until Depart Out came along. Then suddenly you Depart Outers "discover" it's real meaning which has been hidden from the church all these years! None of this means commentaries or the writings of men are the ultimate authority. What it means is that men come to the Bible with biases and preconceived ideas of what the text should mean. Looking to the opinions of other godly men, dead or living, serves as a check and balance against our biases. If our interpretations are different than all other godly Bible interpreters, we should be very suspicious of our own interpretations. Does that mean we must be wrong? No. But it means we are probably wrong and need to examine ourselves to see if we are bringing biases to the text.

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I don't believe that "not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" is connected in the way you do

.

What do you mean it's not connected? Verse 24 and verse 25 are part of the same sentence. The author is clearly connecting "considering one another in order to stir up love and good works" with assembling. You define assembling as "entering into the holiest" which is a picture of salvation. That is an individual experience. We do not become saved as a group. So if that is what "assembling" really means to you, what does that have to do with stirring others to love and good works for the purpose of their perseverance which clearly is not an individual activity?

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 811

Fixedheart wrote

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Fixedheart wrote

Heb 10:25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

If Hebrews 10:25 is a command to continue to attend an official church every Sunday until the Lord's return, then what does "so much the more as ye see the day approaching" mean?

The phrase, "so much the more" suggests to me that the assembling and exhorting should increase as we see the day approaching. My question for the church goers who cite this verse as their strongest proof for continuing the external church is:

How are the believers who see the day approaching to assemble "more" in their congregations if Sunday has always been the one day to congregate since Pentecost?

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Frank wrote: I don't think this is talking about assembling more often. The author is simply saying that if we see that the Day is drawing closer, that is all the more reason not to neglect the assembling of the saints. The "more" is related to the need for assembling, not how often it takes place.

In any case, even if it were speaking about assembling more often, why is that a problem?

Here's why I believe it is a problem. The timing, order and manner of worship was very precisely dictated by God. There was not to be any deviation at all.

Ex 12:50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.

De 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

De 12:32 What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Formal worship services that are not sanctioned by God's word is a serious transgression. It is adding to the Bible what is not there. It is offering "strange fire" before the Lord.

Nu 3:4 And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest’s office in the sight of Aaron their father.
Nu 26:61 And Nadab and Abihu died, when they offered strange fire before the LORD.

Le 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not.

"So much the more" cannot be applied to formal corporate worship.

So what is the difference between a "formal" worship service and an informal one? Or is there none? Were the believers gathered in the upper room praying together "corporately" in Acts 1 guilty of offering strange fire? I'm not aware of any Scripture passage commanding them to do that, so it seems they were engaging in a corporate activity "not sanctioned by Scripture".

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

Here's how I see it, and believe me, I struggle with these questions too. The word "congregation" is used 331 times in my KJB. Out of those 331 times, it is used in the NT only one time, here, but that word (sunagoge) is also translated as "synogogue" and "assembly":

Ac 13:43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.

The word "sunagoge" (Strong's 4864) is also translated as follows:

V-synagogue (55x), congregation (1x), assembly (1x); 57

I think the article I posted under EOTCA, What is church? explains all this.

I don't believe it's wrong for those who profess Christ to gather together to share their views. However, there is absolutely no way for us to know who is saved and who is unsaved. Those we mingle with in a formal setting are the problem. When we worship alongside those who are unsaved we become unclean in God's eyes. The problem is when we "join" and "sign up" and place ourselves under the AUTHORITY of those who are very likely unsaved.

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

When I read the passage in 2 Cor. 6, I see that Paul is telling the Corinthians to "depart out". Since I am not a date setter, I'm not restricted to the timeframes dictated by those who teach that false doctrine. That is why I am able to think about the GT period and AD without applying dates to them. There has always been great tribulation. God's "time" is vastly different from ours and while there have been different seasons in God's overall program, the body of Christ is still the same body of Christ that began in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve were commanded to "touch not".

Here in James 2:2 is the same word for "synagogue" and "congregation".

Jas 2:1 ¶ My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.
2 For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment;
3 And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool:
4 Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts?

The book of James is reported to have been written between 45 and 150 A.D., depending on how one regards its authorship. I think it's very revealing that James uses the word "synogoge", don't you?

We have been using the word "church" for a literal organization but it is a description of God's elect, eternal body. Our thinking about "church" has always been messed up and after discussing this for a while here, I have become more convinced about how serious an error it is.

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Were the believers gathered in the upper room praying together "corporately" in Acts 1 guilty of offering strange fire?

Nadab and Abihu were priests in the temple. The disciples in Acts were not in the temple, but an "upper room". I would say these two congregations could not be more different.

Here is every verse using the "upper room" (5253) which shows how very different the upper room was (informal):

Ac 1:13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room <5253>, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
Ac 9:37 And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber <5253>.
Ac 9:39 Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber <5253>: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them.
Ac 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber <5253>, where they were gathered together.

Tabitha had died and was placed in an upper room.

Here is an interesting verse, which shows the upper room and also "sunago" which is related to "sunagoge".

Ac 20:8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together (sunago).

Joined: 05 Nov 2009 Posts: 811

Fixedheart wrote

We have been using the word "church" for a literal organization but it is a description of God's elect, eternal body. Our thinking about "church" has always been messed up and after discussing this for a while here, I have become more convinced about how serious an error it is.

Fixedheart,
How do you define "church" in the following passages?

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. (James 5:14)

From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)

Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. (Acts 15:22)

So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed. (Acts 14:23)

All of these passages connect the word "church" to the office of "elder". An elder is a leader of an external organization body. So how can the definition of "church" in these passages be anything other than an external organizational structure?

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

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Fixedheart,
How do you define "church" in the following passages?

Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. (James 5:14)

From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. (Acts 20:17)

Then it pleased the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas, namely, Judas who was also named Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren. (Acts 15:22)

So when they had appointed elders in every church, and prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord in whom they had believed. (Acts 14:23)

All of these passages connect the word "church" to the office of "elder". An elder is a leader of an external organization body. So how can the definition of "church" in these passages be anything other than an external organizational structure?

I firmly believe there was an actual salvation age which is more commonly referred to as the "church age". The believers (the church) were given the mission of the Great Commission and were sent out two by two. They had a tesimony to declare and they also gathered together. The early ekklesia (called out ones to be called by His name) needed elders. Paul, Peter, James, John, etc. were all "elders". However, the tares of the world became false elders wherever the ekklesia gathered.

James 5:14: Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

Who are the elders of the church (the ekklesia, the called out ones?)

I consider myself one of the "sick" who needs healing. Every time I read the Bible, I am calling upon "the elders" of the ekklesia. The body of Christ is always "one" and the entire body is always praying "without ceasing" in the name of the Lord. That is how I understand the verses you cited.

2 John 1 starts out by saying: "The elder unto the elect lady and her children, whom I love in the truth; and not I only, but also all they that have known the truth;"

Not only John himself, but "also all they that have known the truth". To me, that means John, the elder, and me.

3Jo 1:1 The elder unto the wellbeloved Gaius, whom I love in the truth.

Re 14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

My apologies if my understanding is overly spiritual.