Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic - A Reminder To The Satanic Date-Setters

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

A reminder to the satanic date-setting Camping friends

Your calendar is no more accurate than the calendar evolutionists use to date the earth....

When we examine the chronology of the LXX and MT, we see that there are differences. Josephus, who "owned" the Nehemiah library, from the very temple itself, the most original and authentic scriptures one could ever have, agrees mostly with the LXX in chronology:

Before son's birth

1. Adam - 230 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
2. Seth - 205 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
3. Enos - 190 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
4. Cainan - 170 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
5. Maleleel - 165 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
6. Jared - 162 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
7. Enoch - 65 years (Josephus agrees with the MT)
8. Mathusela - 187 years (Josephus agrees with the MT)
9. Lamech - 182 years (Josephus agrees with the MT)
10. Noah - 600 years (Josephus, LXX and MT all agree)
11. Arphaxad - 135 years (Both Josephus and LXX)
12. Sala - 130 years (Both Josephus and the LXX)
13. Eber - 134 years (Both Josephus and the LXX)
14. Phaleg - 130 years (Both Josephus and the LXX)
15. Ragau - 132 years (Both Josephus and the LXX)
16. Sarug - 130 years (Both Josephus and the LXX)
17. Nahor - 79 years (Both Josephus and the LXX)
18. Terah at the birth of Abram - 70 years (Josephus, LXX and MT all agree)

Just one slight error in the MT text, totally wrecks the accuracy of any Camping friend calendar.

Errors in the 1008AD masoretic text have been proven again and again, from verses like Exodus 1:5 and "75 souls" (confirmed by Acts 7:14, the LXX and the Dead Sea Scrolls) I Samuel 17:4 and Goliath's height being "4 cubits," (confirmed by the Dead Sea Scrolls, the LXX and Josephus's writings from the Nehemiah library).....as well as verses like Psalm 22:16 that says "they pierced my hands and my feet" (confirmed by the LXX and Dead Sea Scrolls. The MT says "like a lion are my hands and feet")....as well as verses like Deuteronomy 32:43, "Let all the angels of God worship Him" that is in the LXX and DSS, but not in the MT....as this is quoted in Hebrews 1:6.........a few examples among many.

The progressive revelation date-setters foot will slide in due time

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 346

Lambsfury,

You make an excellent point! Even one error in these MT numbers would ruin Camping's calendar speculation. And, I think that many discrepancies between different manuscripts are indeed with the numbers because even a tiny slip of the "pen" would change the number drastically. I don't understand why Mr. Camping doesn't realize this obvious problem. Does he think that the MT is inerrant? That position would be impossible to defend. Or does he think there are some errors in the MT, but no possibility of errors in the numbers? That position is totally inconsistent. I don't see any possibility of a consistent and rational answer to your excellent point.

I hope someone can explain how Mr. Camping gets around this obvious problem. Again, does he really believe the MT is inerrant and that God miraculously guided the copyists to deliver a perfect Old Testament?

I am sure I will be accused of not trusting the Bible when I admit that some of the numbers in the MT may be wrong. But I don't think that wrong numbers would change any doctrines, or change God's message to us in any way. It only changes and helps to nullify the mysterious false teachings of Mr. Camping who misuses Biblical numbers in arriving at his false conclusions.

Indeed, it appears that God displayed his wisdom in choosing to use fallible, human copyist to preserve his perfect Word. Although not one truth of the Bible was lost, there is just enough human imperfection to clearly see that we cannot use the numbers in a mysterious way to arrive at strange new doctrines.

Marc

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 346

Follow up to previous post,

The internet site http://www.thedevineevidence.com/bible_contradictions_scribal_errors.html listed these as possible scribal errors in the MT. I realize that these may not be errors. But isn't it possible that some of these apparent contradictions could have been the result of scribal errors? YEARS OF FAMINE
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Choose thee either three years' famine... I Chronicles 21:11
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Shall seven years of famine come unto thee... II Samuel 24:13

Though the Masoretic text shows conflicting amounts between three and seven years, the Greek Septuagint
reveals the possible accurate length of three years in both verses.

HOW OLD WAS JEHOIACHIN WHEN HE BEGAN TO REIGN?
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign... II Chronicles 36:9
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign... II Kings 24:8

Pre-Masoretic manuscripts record the presumably correct age as being 18 in both verses.

THE AMOUNT OF KING SOLOMON'S HORSES & STALLS
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Solomon had forty thousand stalls of horses for his chariots... I Kings 4:26
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Solomon had four thousand stalls for horses and chariots... II Chronicles 9:25

The Septuagint states the possible correct amount as being 4,000 in both verses.

To demonstrate how easily a scribal error could be committed, I listed the text below as it appears in the
Masoretic Text and highlighted the discrepancies in red font. If anyone notices any errors in my Hebrew, please
let me know! Smile

KING BAASHA BATTLED ASA IN THE 36TH YEAR OF HIS REIGN BUT DIED DURING THE 26TH YEAR
(KJV) Contradiction 1: So Baasha slept with his fathers...in the twenty sixth year of Asa... I Kings 16:6,8
(KJV) Contradiction 2: In the six and thirtieth year of the reign of Asa... II Chronicles 16:1

THE AMOUNT OF GOLD TALENTS SOLOMON RECEIVED
(KJV) Contradiction 1: [They] fetched from thence gold, four hundred and twenty talents, and brought it to
king Solomon... I Kings 9:28
(KJV) Contradiction 2: [They] took thence four hundred and fifty talents of gold, and brought them to king
Solomon... II Chronicles 8:18

THE AGE OF KING AHAZI'AH WHEN HE BEGAN HIS REIGN
Here are a few places that their are apparant errors in the MT numbers. I realize that these may not be errors. But isn't it possible that some of these apparent contradictions could have been the result of scribal errors. (KJV) Contradiction 1: Two and twenty years old was Ahazi'ah when he began to reign... II Kings 8:26
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Forty and two years old was Ahazi'ah when he began to reign... II Chronicles 22:2

THE AMOUNT OF SUPERVISORS FOR SOLOMON'S TEMPLE PROJECT
(KJV) Contradiction 1: Solomon's officers were... three thousand and three hundred... I Kings 5:16
(KJV) Contradiction 2: Solomon told...three thousand and six hundred to oversee them... II Chronicles 2:2

THE AMOUNT OF ARAMEAN CHARIOTEERS KILLED BY DAVID
(KJV) Contradiction 1: David slew the men of seven hundred chariots... II Samuel 10:18
(KJV) Contradiction 2: David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men in chariots. I Chronicles 19:18

I think these examples may support the point that there may be small scribal errors in the numbers of the MT. Therefore we should not use numbers in the mysterious way that Mr. Camping does. The numbers should not be used to give us new, sensational, secret, doctrines from the Bible.

Marc

Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 291

Tom,

Your foot slid when you got snowballed by Turretinfan's "who was Moses's father" routine. James White obviously bought this con job to as he immediately posted TF's remarks on his website. The whole thing was a snowjob.

YOU GOT PUNKED!

Marc,

I don't buy your theory that God let men corrupt his word. As far as I'm concerned, the text that the King James translator's used was literally the handwriting of God Almighty. There is no such thing as a scribal error. Exactly how God accomplished this, I don't know and I don't want to know. I couldn't care less about the Masorites or the MT text or the LXX or the Septuagint or whatever. I believe that God gave us the Bible and kept his Word free from error. It's like the old saying, don't tell me about the pain, just show me the baby. Granted, the KJ translation was not perfect or inspired. But the text that they used was letter perfect. I refuse to consider anything else.

You stated that one wrong number would do away with the May 21, 2011 date. MARC, THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT! The proofs that focus on May 21, 2011 would never have shown up if the timeline was off by just one year. The chronology that Camping laid out in his book Adam When was dead on the money. The flood date of 4990 BC was accurate! The Day of Judgment wlll take place next year.

Brad

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

Marc,

Exactly.

In addition, there is no verse that states:

"God preserves His Word through the Masoretes"

The Camping friends keep saying that, but offer no verse that states that.

One of their "preconceived notions" along with the notion that "FR is the divine cult"

The original Hebrew manuscripts no longer exist. Josephus owned them, wrote his writings from those original manuscripts, so we have a glimpse of what they are...

And there are clear differences from the MT text.

The Dead Sea Scrolls(DSS) is the oldest Hebrew we have to date. 1000 years older than the MT text of 1008AD.

I have every single DSS Hebrew manuscript, both from the Canon and non-canonical books....

And there are "thousands" of differences between the DSS and MT in the Canonical writings.

Lets hear the Camping friends come up with the argurment that the "revised Hebrew" of 1008AD has more authority than the 3rd century BC Hebrew of the DSS.

The Camping friends think that God divinely worked through the masoretes the past 1500 years.....and offer no verse to state that.

Even hard-core supporters of the MT text (people who actually know what they talking about, unlike the Camping friends) admit the MT text has errors...especially I and II Samuel.

God preserves His Word to a very high degree...

But one must look at "multiple texts" to see that...

Not just the foolish assumption that these feeble-men make that there was no Bible for the first 1600 years of Christianity until King James came long..

The Camping friend calendar is nothing.....totally in error.

These fools were burned in 1994 by the same false calendar and their mockery will come again in 2011.

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

Brad,

We will see who the "punk" is when May 2011 comes and goes.

Then your life will never be the same...

You are just a feeble-minded half-man behind a computer..

Like the rest of the Camping friends...

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 346

Brad,

You are ignoring the obvious truth that God in his infinite wisdom did not preserve every letter of the MT perfectly. That is nonsense. Each ancient MT manuscript is different from all the other manuscripts in small ways. Which manuscript is your perfect manuscript? Each edition of the MT is different in small ways. Which edition of the MT is is your perfect manuscript.

Brad, there are many, many editions of the MT. Which edition do you consider perfect? Please let us know! You make a foolish statement that the MT is perfect, but don't realize that their are many editions of the MT, all of them different. You speak as if their is one definitive MT. You are gravely mistaken.

Brad, it is obvious that God new best. He did not miraculously preserve the original text so that every letter and number was perfect. Instead he preserved it through faithful scribes who made small errors. None of these small errors alter any of the truths that God was to preserve for his chosen people. And these small errors make it absurdly ridiculous for false teachers to invent secret codes based on number or letter patterns they find in the text.

The fact is that the truths of the Bible have been amazingly preserved. But in order to prevent false teachers from using mystical interpretations based on equal distance letters, or numerology, God allowed minor imperfections in the text we have today. Does this corrupt God's truth? Absolutely not! It did not prevent one truth from being communicated.

Again, what is the benefit of God allowing small imperfections to enter the text? The benefit is that we can know for sure that teachers like Mr. Camping are false. We cannot claim to know the exact date that Adam was created. We cannot predict the future based on mysterious significant number patterns. Why? Because God does not instruct us to teach such speculations. And for those that presumptiously do offer these types of teachings, he did not perfectly preserve each number. The infinite wisdom of God is evident in how he wonderfully preserved his truth. Yet, he did allow imperfections that prevent false teachers to play games with doctrines using Biblical numbers.

Brad, if you can state which edition of the MT is your perfect text, one might consider your claim. However, you must at least identify which text edition you are talking about, so that we can consider if your point has any merit. There are many editions of the MT. You say the MT is perfect. Which one?

Marc

Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 291

Marc,

As I already stated, I really don't care about the MT text, or who the Masorites were, or how the original greek copies of the New Testament were preserved and past down through the centuries. I don't know, and I really don't care. God has given us the Bible. I believe that the text that the KJ translator's used was letter for letter God's word. I won't consider anything else. I don't buy your theory at all that God left us with a hodge podge of corrupt text to sort through to try and figure out exactly what the Bible is. I do believe that the Biblical Calendar validates the KJ source text as God's Word. How many times need it be said? The proofs that focus on May 21, 2011 would never have showed up if the timelne was off by just one year. We can be sure that the Day of Judgment will take place next year!

Tom,

You got some nerve calling other people feeble minded halph men. After the way you got snowballed by Turretinfan, you really have no room to talk.

HE PUNKED YOU BAD!!

Brad

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

Brad said:

"As I already stated, I really don't care about the MT text, or who the Masorites were, or how the original greek copies of the New Testament were preserved and past down through the centuries. I don't know, and I really don't care. God has given us the Bible"

Translation: You believe that God works through your divine ministry of FR and that the Alameda Church is where God comes down to man....

Since everything that FR had believed the past 50 years is supposedly false(Eternal torment, the Cross, Judgment Day) then what you are saying is that FR was preaching falsehoods the past 50 years, and that God blessed those falsehoods over the last 2 years with "truth."

Sorry!!!!!!

IF FR has been preaching falsehoods the past 50 years, how can you be sure they are not still preaching falsehoods?

Did God not guide your "divine ministry" the past 50 years? Apparently not.

As far as TF, not sure what you are talking about. The last time I read what he wrote, he believed Amram is the father of Moses and the 430 years began with Abraham.

Maybe you are referring to Fred Butler, who regularly debates TF.

As usual, the Camping friends don't have their facts straight...

And you are a feeble-minded half-man.

You are spiritually feeble, mentally feeble, and no doubt, physically feeble.

Harold Camping is the author and finisher of your faith....

Joined: 31 Dec 2008 Posts: 346

Brad,

You are closing your eyes to the truth. The KJV translators did not always use the MT in translating the Bible! Sometimes they realized that there was an error in the MT and used the editorial notes left by the scribes rather than relying on the text itself. You refuse to consider this irrefutable evidence that the King James translators were not working with a letter perfect text.

You are closing your eyes to the truth that God perfectly preserved his truths with imperfect scribes. The truths are wonderfully preserved, and yet it is impossible for you or anyone to invent strange doctrines using mysterious "spiritually significant" number patterns. It appears that God did not allow the letter perfect Bible manuscript in order to prevent people like Mr. Camping from fooling us. We realize that there is indeed the possibility of a number being transcribed incorrectly, and therefore don't dare to invent new doctrines based on mysterious number patterns. The slight imperfections indeed help to maintain the integrity of the Word by preventing people from inventing strange new doctrines using Biblical numbers. The possibility that a number could indeed have been transcribed incorrectly prevents false teachers like Mr. Camping from ensnaring many with his nonsense.

I don't agree with everything Lambsbury says, but I have to admit that Lambsbury's point (that we cannot claim that the numbers in the MT are inerrant) is a death blow to anyone who subscribes to Mr. Camping's Biblical Calendar teaching.

Marc

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

Marc said:

"The KJV translators did not always use the MT in translating the Bible!"

100% correct.

An example is Psalm 22:16

"For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet" Psalm 22:16

The KJV translators used the LXX translation of Psalm 22:16

"For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet." Psalm 22:16 - The LXX

The phrase "they pierced my hands and my feet" which reads in the LXX, does not read this in the MT. The MT says:

"Like a lion are my hands and my feet"

Jewish Bibles today, using the MT say the same thing:

"Dogs are all around me, a pack of villains closes in on me like a LION [at] my hands and feet." Psalm 22:16 (Complete Jewish Bible)

"For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a LION, they are at my hands and my feet." Psalm 22:16 (Hebrew-English Bible, Mechon-Mamre)

The Dead Sea Scrolls confirm the authority of the LXX reading:

"[For] dogs are [all around me]; a gang of evil[doers] encircles me. THEY HAVE PIERCED MY HANDS AND MY FEET." Psalm 22:16 - The Dead Sea Scrolls - 5/6HevPs

The KJV translators used the LXX reading of Psalm 22:16

To the deafening silence of the Camping friends....

Tom

Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 291

Tom,

I told you that you got punked by TF and now you are saying that you don't know what I am talking about. You know exactly what I'm talking about. TF called HC during the Q/A part of the IRI debate and asked the question who was Moses's father? He then posted his Camping Jenga article on James White's website in which he stated that Amram was clearly Moses's father. This was total nonsense. A complete snowjob! But it seemed like you immediately bought it hook, line and sinker as I recall that you started bringing up TF's points in the FRL forum about Moses's father and the short sojourn. This was before Ken Matto suddenly realized that you "were nothing but an internet bully" and kicked you out. I also seem to recall you posting comments on TF's website.

A little while back, you told me that for 20 years, you had never bothered to seriously check Camping's teaching on the Biblical Calendar. You just assumed his teaching was correct and proceeded to break his timeline down into prime numbers. Now, you have let yourself get snowballed by TF's "who was Moses's father fiasco.

Tom, this is evidence that your problem is one of mental weakness. You easily let yourself get punked by any Tom, not allowed or Harry who comes down the pike. And you presume to be the one to lecture us on textual criticism?

I'll take a pass on that one!

Brad

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

Brad,

Amram is the father of Moses...

FACT

The Bible mentions it 4x and all the secular evidence confirms it.

You have not "one shred" of evidence to say otherwise....either Biblical or secular.

You can't come to grips that your "divine ministry" has been wrong for 35 years and the book "Adam When?" is 100% false!

It is totally absurd to say that God mentions the Amram as the father of Moses 4x in scripture, just so you apostates can come along to say this information is "missing"

God mentions the father in law of Moses - Jethro, the wife of Moses, the sons of Moses, the brother of Moses, but the parents of Moses are "missing"

Keep living in the land of delusion!!!

And eternal torment is coming, and it is coming upon all the Camping friends as the "plagues/stripes" will be "added" to you - Rev 22:18

And keep thinking it is adding the plagues of annihilation!!

And as you and your cult are tormented eternally, you can spend all that time thinking how the cult your worshipped, only plundered you deeper into the torments of hell...

Share that in your next Bible study!

Joined: 04 Mar 2009 Posts: 291

Tom,

You keep talking about a cult. What cult? You know about the individual on the FR board of director's who openly opposes Camping's teaching on annihilation. But the guy is still with FR. I don't know all the specifics, but my understanding is that there are other people who work for FR don't agree with HC. I've heard that there are many people who attend FR functions, banquet's etc who go to church and don't agree with HC. One of the original founders of FR who left the ministry now calls Camping an embarassment and a false teacher. I think the guy's name is Linquist or Lunquist, something like that. He now has his own radio ministry. Anyway, last year, I got the FR news in the mail, and there was a picture of this dude side by side with Camping at a recent FR banguet. Point being, I just don't get the picture that HC is an iron fisted cult leader. Especially when his total compensation package for 50 years of service is a grand total of zero! No salary, no benefits, nuthin! I don't buy the idea that he is a cult leader.

In regards to your teaching's on textual criticism and Biblical chronology, I'm not buyin it. Your not going to snowball me.

Ain't no way I'm going to let myself get punked by you!

No Way!

Brad

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1070

If you believe in "progressive revelation" after the Bible was completed, that makes that organization a "cult"

The same "progressive revelation" that Jim Jones, David Koresh, the Watchtower, the 7th Day Adventists all believe...

Your absurd reasoning that Harold Camping "does not earn a salary" is not how one "tests the spirits"

And what goes along with "progressive revelation" is "date-setting."

Just as Koresh and many others claimed some "date" of the end, your cult does to..

When you look at the characteristics of Christian cults, they:

1. Have one person who they consider "their leader"
2. Believe they are the special chosen ministry divinely selected
3. Believe they have been "soley" raised to "correct" truths taught for thousands of years
4. Believe in mind control of their slaves

All the qualities above, are the Camping friends.....

You believe that God has "selected" the FR minsitry as the "sole instrument" to bring some "final truth" to the masses..

You are a cult..