Depart Out • Harold Camping • End of the world • church age • Family Radio • View topic

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

How can the seven seals be loosed at the end if the Book of Revelation was not sealed when it was written?

Joined: 31 Dec 2009 Posts: 506

May I share my views on this question? Here's how I see it. In Rev. John was being given the revelation of Jesus Christ who was the last of the prophets. It is the same Revelation that was given to Jesus Christ by the Father. (Rev. 1:1) (What this means to me is that the Revelation of Jesus Christ is limited in scope, without any timelines. That is why the Son OF GOD does not know the hour. It is simply because it was not part of the Revelation recorded in the Scriptures. It has nothing to do with how much Jesus "knew" as God. We are to read the words of God and accept them as true and not trouble ourselves of His reasons.)

The visions given to John are the last words of the Bible. John is given visions and he also hears voices. He is told to write what was before, what is, and what will be. When John receives each vision as each seal is removed, the Bible is then finished and completely opened or revealed. It had to remain sealed until it was completed.

Rev. 6:1 ¶ And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, ....
2 And I saw,...
3 ¶ And when he had opened the second seal, I heard...
5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard ... And I beheld,...
6 And I heard ...
7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard...
9 ¶ And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw...
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was...
Re 8:1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.

These are visions that John is having in real time of events which were past, present and future. A seal was removed before each vision was experienced by John. Daniel's visions had to remain sealed until the last of the prophets came.

At the end of the book, we read: Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

This is how I understand the opening of the seals.

As for the "silence in heaven", I have meditated on that verse for years now and am of the opinion that this is talking about the period of time in between the last prophet of the OT and the coming of the Messiah. This was a very big deal for the Jews over the course of about 400 years. There were no more prophets being HEARD from and the Jews were having a hard time retaining their faith that the Messiah would come. This is picturing our current day also when the Bible is complete but there are no more prophets other than the prophets who are recorded in the Scriptures. I do not believe that the "silence in heaven" (or 1948) have anything to do with no salvation in GT.

HC's premise is that silence in heaven of Rev. 8:1 means no salvation. As far as I know, he bases his conclusion solely on Luke 15:7 which refers to joy in heaven when there is repentance.

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise [u]joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.[/u]

I don't see that "joy in heaven" is the opposite of "silence in heaven". Silence refers to words that are not spoken and not heard. Joy is something experienced inwardly and silently. If we are listening to Camping about this, we would have to imagine that the "joy" referred to in Luke 15:7 is accompanied by choirs of angels singing. I do not hear these choirs when I read Luke 15:7.

Another problem is that joy over "repentance" is not joy over "salvation". Repentance is an ongoing experience for every true believer who has the promise, the hope and the earnest of salvation.

Why don't we just go to see a play or read a good novel if we are willing to believe anything that comes out of a man's mind?

In the beginning verses of Rev. 8 I see glimpses of Zachaiah in the temple and the prepartion of the coming of the Messiah where the story picks up after the last prophet, Malachi.

These words began the looooongggg wait for the Messiah when no further word from God (silence) was heard for 400 years when the people were greatly tested:

Mal 4:4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

That is my understanding of the seventh seal that was opened and the other seals that were opened a long time ago. HC's opening of the seals today that were opened for John is a frightful thing to be witnessing.

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

Fixedheart wrote

...These are visions that John is having in real time of events which were past, present and future. A seal was removed before each vision was experienced by John. Daniel's visions had to remain sealed until the last of the prophets came.

The problem with this view is that the unsealing of the seventh seal appears to have a causal relationship to the soundings of the seven trumpets that ensue after it is unsealed. And since these events are evidently related to the GT and DOJ I don't see how the seventh seal could be broken until the beginning of the GT. Could you please explain?

Fixedheart wrote

HC's premise is that silence in heaven of Rev. 8:1 means no salvation. As far as I know, he bases his conclusion solely on Luke 15:7 which refers to joy in heaven when there is repentance.

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise [u]joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.[/u]

I don't see that "joy in heaven" is the opposite of "silence in heaven". Silence refers to words that are not spoken and not heard. Joy is something experienced inwardly and silently. If we are listening to Camping about this, we would have to imagine that the "joy" referred to in Luke 15:7 is accompanied by choirs of angels singing. I do not hear these choirs when I read Luke 15:7.

Additional support given here:

There is another thread discussing the topic of the meaning of this shortening (http://www.departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=163&sort=lastpost). It does seem like there is a sense in which the GT could be a time in which salvation is not occurring unless the period is shortened. This topic is also discussed here: http://www.departout.com/viewtopic.php?t=106.

Fixedheart wrote

In the beginning verses of Rev. 8 I see glimpses of Zachaiah in the temple and the prepartion of the coming of the Messiah where the story picks up after the last prophet, Malachi.

These words began the looooongggg wait for the Messiah when no further word from God (silence) was heard for 400 years when the people were greatly tested:

Mal 4:4 ¶ Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Also, there apparently are two Elijah's in the last days: John the Baptist and some other one. I could be wrong but that seems to be the implication of these verses (along with Malachi 4:5):

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1052

Didymus,

You are failed to understand something...

You DON'T have to live through a specific time to understand what is being said.

That is the snare that the Camping friends want people to think...

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea." Revelation 21:1

"And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things." Revelation 22:8

John personally saw the new heaven and new earth....he saw more and understood more than anybody today.

He is seeing things at the end and after.

Are you saying that John saw the new heaven and new earth, but was "clueless" because Harold Camping did not explain it to him?

Be serious...

John saw the "future" and "understood" the future, even though he personally did not live through that time.

As the book is unsealed - Rev 22:10 and completed - Rev 22:18, all the elect can understand what John did...

Even though the elect the past 2000 years did not live to see the Second Coming of Christ, they "understood" what happens at the end, Judgment Day, as all stand before him.

So, you need to be deprogrammed with the Camping way of understanding the Bible, that all have been "clueless" until Camping came into the world...

Soon you will say that the apostle John is not real and a parable and that it is Harold Camping in view in these verses....and this is how the Bible "corrects us"

Tom

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

LAMBSFURY wrote

Didymus,

You are failed to understand something...

You DON'T have to live through a specific time to understand what is being said.

Ok, I agree that it is possible that the unsealing was done as John was writing Revelation. The question that needs to be answered is this: what is "that time" spoken of by Daniel?

And at the time of the end

And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation [even] to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt

seal the book, [even] to the time of the end

The sealing is until the time of the end. And the descriptions of "that time" all show clear evidence of GT and DOJ. So, how do you explain that problem?

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1052

It's not a problem...

You are going "outside" the Bible to define Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9...

"And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are CLOSED up and SEALED till the TIME OF THE END" Daniel 12:9

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to OPEN THE BOOK, and to LOOSE the seven SEALS thereof." Revelation 5:5

"And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND" Revelation 22:10

The closed book at the time of Daniel is pointing to Christ opening the seals on Patmos.

The book that was "closed" is now "opened." The book that was "sealed" is now "unsealed."

Daniel 12:4 and Daniel 12:9 is looking to the additional revelations at Patmos that completed the Canon.

The "time is at hand."

The "time of the end" as declared in Daniel 12:9 is also a reference to the New Testament period, as the phrases "end of the world" - Hebrews 9:26, and "last days" - Acts 2:17, Hebrews 1:2, and "last time" - I John 2:18, are also references to the New Testament period.

You have fallen into the same snare as the charismatics have....as they look at "last days" in Acts 2:17 and think that visions and tongues occur today, when they are not.

Just as the charismatics look to Acts 2:17 and think this occurs "today," the Camping friends look to Daniel 12:9 and think this is occuring "today."

Both are not...Rev 22:18 has snared you.

The Bible is completed.

Instead of looking to the Bible to define Daniel 12:9, as Rev 5:5, Rev 22:10 defines it, you look "outside" the Bible, to cults "not named in the Bible" as it's fulfillment...

And all cults compete with each other trying to prove to everybody that they are the personal fulfillment of it....

Camping and his slaves are no more a fulfillment of Daniel 12:9, then Camping is a fulfillment of Isaiah 7:14

"Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel." Isaiah 7:14

Do you let Matthew 1:23 fulfill this, or to you look to the cults today to fulfill it?

The same is true with Daniel 12:9. Rev 5:5, Rev 22:10 fulfills it......

Instead you think that God makes us search the 100,000 cults today to see which one has the crystal ball....

Wrong

Tom

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

LAMBSFURY: You did not address the substance of my question. I don't need another explanation of the fact that the term latter days and the like refer to the entire new testament period. This does not mean that all similar references are not making reference to the GT or the DOJ period. Here is a verse which clearly speaks of the very end of time as "end of days":

Dan 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end [be]: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

The context of the previously quoted verses from Daniel also indicate that the time in question is the very end of period of the latter days; but you did not address this problem.

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1052

And the time in question in the Book of Revelation is also the end AND AFTER!

The END was revealed to the apostle John.

You are claiming that John was revealed Judgment Day, the second coming of Christ, and the New Heavens and new earth, but the "secret date" was kept hidden to him?

Where do you see ONE VERSE that states in Daniel 12 that the "last day" is going to be "revealed" to anybody?

That is what you have "added" to these verses that are not there..

The Father ONLY knows of that day and hour - Matthew 24:36

What does the word ONLY mean in Matthew 24:36?

Can you answer that?

Not one Camping friend has had the guts to try...

Tom

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

LF: I don't recall making any assertion about the day and the hour... I do recall pointing out that Daniel was told that the events surrounding the end would be revealed at the end of time; but you do not have any answer to this problem apparently.

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1052

And I answered you...

The Book of Revelation which did not exist at the time of Daniel, reveals details about the GT, and the Last Day and beyond...

What "additional" writings do you believe in that are Canonized?

The book "We are almost there?"

Tom

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

Michael stands up (Dan 12:1) "at that time" which seems to be during or near the time of the GT. The reference is to Dan 11:40 use of "at that time" and also "the time of the end" in Dan 12:4.

It does not say "of that time" or "speaking about that time" but "AT that time".

Are you saying that the time reference in Dan 12:4 is not the same one as made in Dan 12:1 and Dan 11:40 ? If so then please explain your reason for it.

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1052

Daniel 12:1 is looked again in Matthew 24:21

Daniel 12:2 is quoted again in John 5:28-29

The New Testament reveals the Old.

Are you trying to say that the disciples were "clueless" when Jesus said in Matthew 24:15 to read the Book of Daniel?

Just answer directly.....

Is Daniel 12:9 a reference to Harold Camping and his slaves

Yes or no?

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

So we are in agreement that Dan 12:1-2 seem to be speaking of the GT and the DOJ.

Now, again, are you saying that the time reference in Dan 12:4 is not the same one as made in Dan 12:1-2 and Dan 11:40 ? If so then please explain your reason for it.

Joined: 03 Dec 2009 Posts: 1052

Daniel 12 is a prediction of "the future"

Matthew 24 and the rest of the New Testament, like Revelation, further give us details on it.

You are falling into the Camping friend trap of thinking all have been clueless to what the Bible says, until Family Radio came around..

So, you show me just one doctrine, from the Bible, that you think "you" know today, that believers 500 years ago did not..

Can you name one and prove it from the Bible?

Joined: 23 Sep 2009 Posts: 1365

So, again, we are in agreement that Dan 12:1-2 seem to be speaking of the GT and the DOJ.

Now, yet again, are you saying that the time reference in Dan 12:4 is not the same one as made in Dan 12:1-2 and Dan 11:40 ?